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usa today's susan page talks about the life and career of barbara walters. she is interviewed by former abc news white house correspondent al compton. after words is a weekly interview program with relevant progress towards interviewing top nonfiction authors about the latest work. >> season, barbara walters was known as a history maker, and groundbreaking. but where a will break? >> we struggle with the title. i would ask people, what should i write? people suggested things like "million dollar baby." these are actually slings and arrows that she endures. it was interesting. that's what came to mind of some people when i can't biography of barbara walters. but it was a matter strikes me as a rule breaker." and rule breaker seems to be exactly right because barbara walters broke every rule

arrived, she didn't break, she ignored them. pretend that she couldn't see them. so the idea that a woman can do serious interviews, she ignored it and went ahead and schedule serious interviews. the idea that a woman couldn't be paid as much as a man. the idea later in life that i woman could be her age on tv, she was 67 when she embarked on "the view cost us the abc show. will breaker to directly write. first, what intrigued me on the cover of the book was a picture of barbara walters when she had just joined abc news where i had already been for a year or two. what is happening in that moment when that picture is taken? susan: the picture is from 1976, the year she got to reach the pinnacle she could started for of all, to be named coanchor

over an evening network newscast, abc evening news. it'd been a terrible experience. she was going into what today we call a hostile workplace. her coworker initially threatened to quit if they brought her on board. he treated her with such content on the air that they stop doing two shots -- 82-shot is where they would show both anchors, but they were afraid to show harry reid's not listening to barbara walters on the air because he was so often scholarly. host: evidence can say, he would spell and make a physical response to her without having term -- he could scowl susan: abc started to get letters from viewers seeing what is going on. finally they wrote a letter in response and said, please give it some time. we know this to work out all right. that's how bad it was.

barbara walters, she found she was failing, dragging. she said her head wondering what where she was not entirely sure if she would recover, if her recoverable or if her ambitions had gotten so big that it would undermine the achievements she had already had. first, let me take you to december of 19 77. president jimmy carter was visiting iran, new year's eve with the shah. barbara and i were both working for abc news. the car was waiting for me to whisk me over to a local museum where it misses carter, without the president, it was going to go visit right after the airport. i get to this sedan was sitting behind this iranian driver and there is an interpreter in the front seat, an egyptian.

i am told the reason there is an interpreter is because an iranian man would never take driving directions from a woman. so the interpreter says, the driver would let you know if you not miss barbara walters? to around. 1977. i said, indeed, we work for the same company. at the egyptian side, he wants to know, is it true she is paid $1 million a month? i said, actually i think it is $1 million a year. and the drivers face fell. barbara walters was already a global icon. didn't that kind of propel her career from that point? susan: isn't that wonderful story? how many journalists have had similar experiences? one of them is walter cronkite. so walter cronkite was, of , course, the leading anchor of the day and a figure of unquestioned authority, and someone who viewed barbara

walters with a little bit of skepticism about whether she was a real journalist. they were both trying to cover the groundbreaking things that were happening in the middle east. the groundbreaking trip of anwar sadat of egypt to israel. and it was barbara walters and her ability to cultivate relations with world leaders that, a few months earlier in 1977, enabled her to get the first sit-down interview with both the egyptian president and the israeli prime minister. and this was the interview that not only solidified her comeback from her sad experience as a co -anchor of the evening news, it also beat walter cronkite, which both of them knew. host: yes, and that interview, split-screen, it was not only a moment for originalism, it changed american foreign policy and middle east policy. really, really difficult time. so how did barbara walters make that your only friend nbc's

today show, very high-profile, plantar anchor, then to the scale of interviewing m operatione? did she do it by herself? did she have allies? how did she say that? ga susan: she had more her life, the legendary head of abc news and abc sports before that. he took over television at a time very both harry and barbara were on the air together and it was clear that it was not a sufficient pairing and he made it clear that he was on barbara's side. being an anchor was really not barbara's strength. but despite that, he saw there were many harry reisners, but there was only one barbara

walters. so harry saw the writing on the wall and went back to cbs. and barbara walters did not lose her anchor title. but the leader redefined how the evening news was going to work with three guys working in different capitals, and barbara still technically an anchor. gradually she went back to what she did best, the big interview. she didn't create the big tv interview i think you'd say. edward r murrow did that, but she expanded it and defined it and reshaped it and came to dominate that genre. ann: absolutely true. the today show experience where she was clearly owen instinctively second fiddle or third fiddle, did that help her in the later reaching out to a broader, not just politicians and national leaders, but really broadened her access to other figures? susan: so here is a life lesson from barbara walters, which is, life gives you lemons, make lemonade. here's how she did that. she had been on the today show when the host was hugh downs.

who was very supportive of her. whatever few men on the air barbara walters in her mission. ann: and later in life he came to abc news and supported her again. susan: exactly. he was the exception to the rule of men who were not welcoming barbara walters. but he left and was replaced by frank mcgee, who was a serious news man who had no great regard for women journalists. and he set a rule that when they were doing an interview together on the nbc set, barbara walters couldn't speak until he had asked the first three questions. can you imagine? so she would sit there for the first three questions awaiting her time until it was her turn to speak. something that would happen in a taxicab not wanting to take directions from woman.

[laughter] so what walters did it she started to arrange an her studio, not on the set, but in other places, in people's homes and offices with newsmakers who didn't do very many interviews . and this became, of course, her defining achievement. her ability to do interviews of people in other places, not sitting in an interview suite like this one. that was a result of necessity because it she sat and was interviewing someone in their home, she could ask that question and the second question on the other question. ann: i were to take a minute to look at the kind of environment that the nation was experiencing during not only the time she came to abc news and the time she left and developed this new persona role? i had joined abc news in 1974,

the tail end of 1974. and from 1970 six of the way to the 1980's, this is a time when america was being torn apart by a position to the vietnam war, this is a time in which watergate had still left it standing, and the chaos. it was the very news-heavy, down, very difficult time. you add to that the fact that women were not as evident and not part of it. i think the world she went into, especially for women, was much, much different than it is today. susan: well are the reason i make the subtitle of the book "the life and times of barbara walters because this is because i wanted to look at other times. the times were so different. it's a couple of decades ago, and yet, as you said, a time of

such tumultuous change for black people in this country, for women in this country. in so many ways, our nation was undergoing a people's and she was sitting in those waters. barbara walters flipped a feminist life, but she didn't aspire to feminist agenda. she was very focused on cutting a path for herself and in doing that, cut a path other women yourself and myself to follow. she made things easier for us by doing what she did. she was very focused on her own career. it is so interesting that you actually were at abc just before she was. do you remember the first time you met her? ann: oh, i do. it's a funny story. the first time i met her, gerald ford was a brand-new president who been sworn in, not elected but after watergate when president nixon resigned.

that is when i arrived. nixon left on the south line, i came in the northbound, and we were in china with gerald ford. he said on the phone waiting for the follow up with muscle tone. but i went with betty ford, we went to that of china, and barbara also came along on these trips. we were in the museum, and those of us who cobra kai white house know how to getting close. and barbara kind of wandered around and make things. and as we came out of the museum, she went to the museum with her camera crew. but we stayed at the doorway of the museum and we got a great interview with her. and i thought, yeah, she was the "today show" host at that point, and it shows that during news reporting -- cut forward to she has arrived at the abc news bureau to to meet everybody.

and i happened to be up in the executive top floor. in the ladies room. she came up and said, they don't have any talents? can they afford to be told here? and i said, i'm not going to say that that $1 million harry has cut into our travel allotment. [laughter] but yes, she had struggles every step of the way especially during those early months and years. susan: i am you're the one interviewing, but one question about that, so you are one of the white house reporters and here comes this foot, barbara walters. what did the white house press corps think of her? ann: she didn't come white house to the and hang with us in the press briefing room. she was a presence, especially during that time where she got that our -- the anwar

sadat, jake interview. all that was done away from the white house. but when we traveled with her, she was at the new year's eve in tehran, at midnight they brought the travel pool. me and a couple of other reporters, to the elegant wall of the palace. they opened the doors and their words president carter and mrs. carter and the king hussein of jordan and the shah of iran. data toasted champagne. and i said mr. president, you , are gonna go to egypt tomorrow to see president sadat. why is that? he went, what? barbara wasn't there because she and john, chancellor of nbc and some of the other bigwigs had been invited to the party and they were off dancing. the president's secret service agent came to me and said, the president needs to see you. i came back upstairs and the president said, well, i was just

told that the secretary of state just told me, yes, we are going to egypt and meeting president sadat at aswan. so sometimes it was just being in the right place at the right time. but she was always kind of a an aura apart from the the working steps at the white house. susan: that is an example of good sourcing, when you know where the president is going to be next day, and he doesn't. ann: yeah. let's move to what the the the part of the barbara years at abc news that i knew the best. central casting could not have designed two more perfect protagonists than barbara walters and diane sawyer. that is the stuff they could make movies, mike nichols could make him aware of that. susan: mike nichols, who was diane sawyer's husband? yes. the president had been barbara's protector and who was barber's

most important professional relationship. he had been courting diane sawyer to come from cvs for close to a year. she finally agreed to come over. barbara heard about it. she saw this as a betrayal that hiring diane would be directly in competition for the big interviews that were her signature. in other ways, diane sawyer pushed every button. barbara walters had a speech anomaly, but diane sawyer spoke very gracefully. barbara walters didn't think she was beautiful. diane sawyer is one of the most beautiful women in american television news. barbara walters had had to scrap and struggle every step of the way. diane sawyer had a much easier path to get into this job, anchoring her own interview show on abc. and i think diane, who i interviewed for the book, was taken aback by the ferocity of

the rivalry that barbara greeted her with. ann: what astonishes me, and, again, i was in the white house in washington, i wasn't in new york, when the two computer to try to get the same newsmaker interviews. but i do remember, i didn't see it as it happened, bill clinton was president of the united states. as people may know, the white house hands out network interviews not to the white house reporters, back to the big anchor starts and it was abc's turn. what happened? so the head of the news division decreed that it was diane caps off term. it was entirely possible that it was supposed to go to. talk about ignoring rule.

barbara walters lobby rep. carey in press secretary explain why she should get the interview, but why diane sawyer should not. and the bureau chief who had been in the middle of this and have very much get involved, said, listen everybody, it is diane stern. she got a call from the white house press secretary said, you are getting the interview and we decided it is going to barbara. so robin understood this was going to cause some internal consternation. so she calls the president and says, the good news is we got the interview. bad news is the white house is giving it to barbara. and he exploded in anger because it was just the latest, the straw that broke the camels back in terms of barbara's rivalry with diane which had made diane

very angry and which diane was complaining about. and the president said turn it down. tell them we will not take it. which is, as you know, totally unheard of. you don't turn down an interview with the president because they will not give it to who you want ? that is not the way it works. and they try to talk and say this will be a cover story, it will not be kept quiet. the world will know it and it would be embarrassing if we turned down the interview now. and roone arledge said turn it down. now a friend of mine, robin tried to think about how to explain to the white house that abc was turning down this prime position interview. she was still trying to figure it out when roone arledge's assistant called her back and

said have you done that then we asked you to do? barbara said no. and he said, then don't, everything will be ok. and they took the interview. ann: the timing of of course, of this interview was interesting. 1996, re-election er. and we didn't know the name monica lewinsky, that that was already -- now that was not the only time there was a trying to steal interviews. was it diane's first? real quick and, barbara walters argument to michael. the press secretary was, everybody knows where the president stands on issues, but his character, can we trust him? and that resonated, and of course eventually it became an issue. susan: she had an ability to conceptualize what she ought to

try to get out of an interview that included with presidents. it was characteristic of her. she interviewed people about policy, about foreign policy, but she was always interested in the human side of the story and the personality behind the newsmaker. , in this case, she had conceptualized an approach this interview that was very an approach this interview that was very tantalizing to the white house. this would have been a chance for him to make the case. this story, which had enormous internal repercussions -- i went to the roone arledge archives -- ann: wait, where are those? susan: they are in columbia. and in the archives there is this very defensive, long memo from barbara walters trying to explain how this happened, because she understood that she was really on thin ice as a result of this.

this had cost her something. she had this long explanation about how it came about and how she couldn't have been blamed and of course it was only natural that it was time for her to get the interview. and by the way, other networks were interested in hiring her. so she closed this memo with this implicit threat that if you punish me for this, i will walk away. and so, there were no professional repercussions. but i can tell you that that was an incident that all those involved remembered very clearly . ann: absolutely. it was not a three-page letter of apology? susan: there was no apology. [laughter] did diana ever try to steal a barbara interview? susan: diane sawyer is also a very competitive person. how could she have achieved all that she's achieved in journalism without being that way? and there are those who say she gave as good as she got in the competition for interviews. but the really notorious stories like that one, they tend to be about barbara. ann: yeah.

not surprised. i want to take a little bit more personal look at barbara walters, because i think one of the gifts of this book is not only unearthing new facts about the very public barbara, but you given much more complete picture of her as a woman. can we start by looking at the forces that shaped her? her family, her marriages, her daughter. susan: so i think so much about barbara walters was shaped by her father lou walters, who was , one of the leading impresarios of his generation. creator of the famous latin quarter, which started in boston and then opened in miami. and then finally -- ann: nightclub? susan: nightclub. finally in new york. it booked the biggest acts there here in the country and it was one of the top destinations in

new york. he was in charge of it. who walters was a guy who had a wonderful touch, a wonderful understanding of what audiences wanted and that was an asset she inherited from him. but he was also a gambler and he would make $1 million and gamble it away playing gin rummy. ann: oh, literally gambler getaway? susan: literally gambling it away. he would make $1,000,000 with the latin quarter and then decide he wanted to open a new nightclub, and it would flop and he would be bankrupt. i think the pivot point in barbara walters life that came when she was 28 years old, she had gotten out of college at sarah lawrence, but she wasn't exactly an career path. she had gotten married to a guy, but then gotten she had just gotten divorced. she had gone to alabama for a quickie divorce of dubious legality. ann: oh!

susan: they were now divorced. she had come back to new york, sitting with staying with a a school friend and that her -- her apartment where her father attempted suicide. she came home from his new nightclub. it was about to fold after just a few weeks. he took all the sleeping pills in the jar and was found by his wife the next morning. his wife didn't call an ambulance. his wife called barbara. barbara came over to the hotel. it was barbara who called the ambulance. barbara rode in the ambulance to the hospital, then stayed with her father. and later, she said the thing that she realized in a flash, was that these financial -- the financial and emotional support for her family is now following her. her father was suicidal, her mother had always been unhappy and dissatisfied. she had an older sister who was developmentally disabled. she was going to be responsible for paying for their life. ann: the head of the family.

susan: she was the head of the family. and that propelled her with the kind of drive that then made her the incredible success professionally that she was, but also the kind of -- no such success on her personal side. she sacrificed what might have been personal gratification and in pursuit of fame and fortune. ann: she was married again, twice more? susan: three times married, three times divorced. she adopted a child. one daughter. one of the marriages lasted. she was estranged from her daughter for a time although they eventually reconciled. she had good friends, she had some good friends, but everyone involved in her life, her has beens -- husbands, her daughter, her friends, understood that when push comes to shove, her

work would come first. ann: why did she get married? i being this is not something that was really family-oriented, something that really drove her. what were the marriages like? susan: i think they were, number one, societal expectations that you got married. that you weren't maybe successful or complete as a woman if you weren't married and had children. but i think she also liked the idea of being married and the idea of having children. it was just the reality that tripped her up. because the reality of having children is you have to put them first some of the time. that may be every single day, morning, noon and night, but there are times when your children comes first even if it is going to cost you something in your career. in marriage, too, that you have to make that a priority and for her, that was simply impossible. ann: she once told a conference in virginia what was impossible. is it impossible to have a great

career and a great marriage and her grandmother, were those are three things? maybe you could get a two out of three. but you can never get all three. susan: you know, she was getting a lifetime achievement award in los angeles and she said something that that i find quite astounding. she said, in speaking about being honored for her lifetime achievement, she said, you know children, they grow up and they , move away. but your fame and your fortune, that lasts forever. and this is, of course, the opposite of the conclusion that many people come to, which is that on your deathbed, you never say i wish i had gone to the office more. ann: that both barbara bush line. you wouldn't wish to win one more case. win one more trial. it is to be with the ones you love. and that continued to be her focus, that it was not family,

it was what you had done in public as your own record and your own achievements that would sustain you. susan: not only what you had done, what you had done yesterday. what you had done a decade ago, ok, that's fine, but what about yesterday? what are you doing tomorrow? when she finally retired from "the view" when she was in her 80's, one of the women backstage came up and said, what do you wish for? thinking she would say, i want to learn how to play the piano or travel to the bahamas? and she said, "i want more time." meaning more time on the air. ann: fascinating. let me ask you a little bit about susan page and how you came to not only be an author, but how you got into journalism. you and i have covered politics and presidents together for -- i

forget, when did you come to washington i? susan: covered the 1980 presidential campaign for knees day and you were in the white house, a very well established figure there. ann: i had been there for a couple of years. 1980 was a watershed year. can you imagine a candidate for president not only being the incumbent who was up for reelection, but winning 44 states, and then 49 states in his reelection? it was a fascinating time. but how did you go into journalism in the first place? susan: so, like many journalists, i worked on my high school paper. ann: and this is in --? susan: wichita kansas. but i liked other things besides journalism. this sounds possibly ridiculous now, but i was very serious about playing the oboe. i played the oboe since i was in the third grade and i went to trap music music camp at the university of kansas in the summers and they played in the state youth orchestra.

i really loved the oboe and i loved classical music and performing in small orchestras and also in smaller groups. i -- it was at the time, a very hard decision to make. [laughter] [laughter] it was hard for me to envision doing both, playing the oboe and being a journalist. journalism won out. as barbara walters would say, no regrets. i then went to northwestern university to the school of journalism. i got a masters degree at columbia. i went to work for newsday. they brought me to washington and put me on the white house and national politics. and then some years later, i moved to usa today. ann: so, at usa today, which was begun right after 1980, remember, 1980 was the beginning of cnn and they were putting together usa today, changing the face of print journalism. i must say that when i first

came to the white house in the late 1974, newspapers dominated the white house press corps and the national conversation of what was news. by the time it got to the 90's and beyond, it was more the charts and paragraphs of the front page of the colorful usa today. and it was cable news and network news that made a real difference. susan: and now are we have a news media landscape that has just exploded, so many ways people can be informed, so many ways they can find their names, and many of them do not involve broadcast networks or newspapers. this is a world in which we have really had to adjust. ann: it really is. so you are in washington, editor of the usa today -- susan: washington bureau chief.

ann: washington bureau chief. and you have time to write a book or three. how do you do that? susan: so i like to say, i no longer do anything i don't like, which is a good, privileged way to live. i very much like being involved in the daily news mix for usa today. but i also have written these three books. it has been like learning a new muscle to use. it's a different kind of research. you know, you spent two years doing research. it is different than when you're doing a story and you have two hours or two days to do research it's a different. kind of writing, this law firm writing. it has just been such fun to figure out how to do this. ann: i want to go back to barbara walters a little bit, on her approach to the people she interviewed, because her interviews were often deeper, longer than things we would do

for normal news coverage. how did she get such things as the interview with fidel castro? susan: so, she spent two years trying to get that interview with fidel castro. she started it when she was at nbc's "today show, that she was still working on it when she went to abc, and it was the first really big interview she got, that she landed after she got to abc. it was in this period in 1977 when she was feeling so beleaguered. with the passage of time and the release of historical documents, we know that she didn't get this interview just because she finally wore down the cubans and fidel castro. she got it because there was a secret effort between the nixon white house and the ford white house and the cuban government to try to normalize relations and get on that footing with cuba. it didn't end up going so well. but there was an effort, and this exclusive interview that they gave barbara walters was

part of an effort by the cubans to present a different side of fidel castro. this is not something that barbara walters knew at the time, nor would she have cared, she only cared that she got the interview. and it is the most wonderful interview. they go on a boat across the bay of pigs. ann: it's not even an interview, it's a whole day in the life of fidel! susan: it became a one-hour special. they cross the bay of pigs in the boat and fidel talks about how he likes to spearfish there. he drives a jeep with her in the front seat across the mountains to this writer's retreat and he gives her this going to hold as they go through the stream so it doesn't get wet. they end up having this feast with a whole roasted. and boy from argentina. it's part of these rumors that they were more than friends, which she denied, but it was

unmistakable that they had the kind of connection that barbara walters often forged with the people she interviewed with powerful men. even the most controversial ones. she could forge a connection that made her interviews crackle. ann: it was the questions that she chose to ask, that was an art form for her. she was fearless. susan: she wanted to interview vladimir putin in the first interview he gave to a western journalist after the 9/11 attacks, so a very big interview. and a very controversial figure, vladimir putin, not someone with whom she had a spark like she did with fidel castro. and her practice was to work on questions on 3x5 cards, and figure them out. they finally had them typed on 5x7 cards.

she knew the questions shorted us. but you never put it all occurred. she was worried that the russian secret service would be doing surveillance and might see the cards and search her room. and they might find out what the questions were. she didn't want vladimir putin to know beforehand and she was worried so she asked at last. such she was worried he would stand up and walk out. so she does interview and asked putin the federal question, have you ever ordered someone killed? no, vladimir putin is a former kgb chief who we are quite certain has ordered people killed in recent years. he says completely passively, "nyet." and that was the end of the

interview ann: . that is an art form, it really is. what happened to barbara walters when she moved into the terminal where she put together the television show "the view" chatty girls. what was the reaction to that, and why did she and her producer believe that that was something they could move forward with? susan: well, bill getty, her longtime producer, interviewed him several times for the book that he has since passed away -- he always wanted to do a daytime show, and barbara and he had talked about it for years. barbara was interested in as well. she said talking with her daughter jackie made her think, why don't we do an interview show with women of different ages and perspectives, because rather than have women of the same point of view, or women of all about the same age, let's have young women, older women and mix and and have and have

these lively conversations like i have with my daughter. so abc had a daytime slot, 11:00 in the morning, where a series of shows had failed, and because they were desperate, they were willing to give this show a shot, even under the executives at abc were not at all convinced it would work. you know how bill getty knew that they didn't think it would work, they refused to buy a new set. they made them use the set that was leftover from one of the soap operas that had failed. ann: ohh, for heaven's sake. susan: they have gotten a new set since then. february, it succeeded. and roone arledge were in a this would undermine the serious reputation she had no top. and barbara worried some about

that. but it was also a chance, barbara said, for her to show something other than herself as an inquisitor. you know, she was a pushy cookie , she used to say, we all knew her as someone who pushed one question after another in a very serious way. this show gave her a chance to show the humor, to talk about her personal life. she would dress up for the halloween shows as marilyn monroe. when they were doing a show in las vegas, she was carried in by four gladiators. [laughter] it was a side of barbara walters no one had ever seen. and i think for some younger people, what they remember about barbara walters is "the view," not the serious, big interview that she did. ann: there is a generational shift. and she does get, they still do get prominent newsmakers on there. i remember barack obama. susan: the first president to do a daytime show. it was barack obama on "the

view." and when they teased him about it, he said i wanted to do a show that michelle would watch. ann: very, very true. and one of the abc producers once told me that the view was a moneymaking machine. susan: and one thing to remember about barbara walters and another part of her legacy from her father -- she kept a piece of that. barwell productions. so it was to her financial benefit as well. and she would tell women in broadcasting, get something for yourself. don't just get a salary. get a stake in it, because that is where you can achieve real financial security. ann: and i think that is a pattern in american network now. very often you will see a good morning america anchor has her own production company. some male anchors have their own production companies and they

barbara walters' advice. susan: and when she did this, as with many things, some in journalism were aghast. you know, she hired a pr agency early on to get her name out there. something serious journalists didn't do. starting her own production company. that was seen as a little bit unseemly for a serious journalist. and now it is something that is widely adopted. ann: when you date the work on barbara walters' book, he had also done this for two other very different women. is that because they are kind of separate, or if there is a thread that runs through the three books, barbara bush, and barbara walters, and nancy pelosi? susan: such a good question. i was interested in doing

barbara bush for my first book because i had covered her and i thought she was very consequential and i thought people had a great misunderstanding about what she was. they thought she would just lovable grandmother, when in fact, she was a force to be reckoned with and someone with strong views who had a big impact. so it would just because it was someone i had covered who i thought was interesting, who was older -- she was in her 90's -- so i thought she would be more honest and earlier she -- than earlier in her life. which turned out to be true. the six interviews with her in the last six months of her life. that was a good experience. nancy pelosi was the most powerful woman in the history of the american government. and there was no good biography of her. so i set out to write a biography about nancy pelosi's use of power. that was my second. and then this third book on

barbara walters, another consequential woman. the thing that ties them together i think, if they are all women of the silent generation. women who were born before the second wave of the women's movement, before the book "the feminine mystique" had been published. they were all of them were born and with zero expectations of themselves and anyone else that they would amount to somebody worth a buck. ann: barbara bush, the daughter of a famous wealthy publisher. nancy pelosi, daughter of a baltimore mayor and the lively political presence. and barbara walters, big impresario. susan: so the daughters of men of some consequence. but the father of nancy pelosi, thought his sons might be, -- might become mayor. it never occurred to him that his daughter might. he never thought that nancy mike. and nancy pelosi was 47 the

first time she ran for office. ann: amazing. susan: and barbara walters was 28 when she suddenly thought i need to get a career because i just support my family. they are women who ended up their lives in ways they never could have foreseen at the time they were born. ann: i remember a moment with barbara bush early in her husband's term, she did her town hall at the kennedy center here in washington, where hundreds of women, thousands of women came to listen to her, and at one point sakai said, of course he has sacrificed your education, you left smith college to marry george bush. and we came backstage afterward and she turned and grabbed me by the nape of my neck and said, "i never sacrificed anything. i left school because i wanted

to marry george bush as he headed off to war." so, all three of those women had in them, in their era, that kind of model energy that barbara walters really, really displayed. susan: they were all made of steel. they all faced significant hurdles. another thing that drew me to each of them if they all made a difference. the world is different. the world is different for me personally, for women generally, and in ways that affect all of us, the world is different because barbara bush and nancy pelosi and barbara walters were around, absolutely. ann: do you think that during this stage, there will ever be a woman president? susan: yes, of course, absolutely. 100%. don't you? ann: yes, i think, but we have

waited so long. susan: i think about, you know, america didn't decide who would elect a black president, america decided that we would elect barack obama. i think the same thing will happen. it is not that america will say, ok, it's time to elect a woman. america will say, here is a woman who -- ann: effects of the criteria. i susan: think in our lifetime. ann: i certainly hope so. when you are doing research on barbara walters, obviously you couldn't talk to her she was out of the picture. but that you have close friends that were helpful -- did she have close friends that were helpful? susan: by the time i started the book, she was in declining health and she was sometimes

totally cogent, sometimes not. her pr representative acted as a go-between. told her i was working on it. it's not an authorized book, she didn't officially cooperate, but she didn't put any hurdles in my way, which was all i really asked for. so when i called her friends and family and people she had worked with in the past, barbara walters did not tell them not to talk to me. ann: so that opened the door without her having to advocate for it. susan: and not every single person talk to me, her daughter jackie declined. she has done almost no interviews and is a very private person. but yes, i interviewed some of barbara's friends, some of the women and men that she worked with like bill getty, and

richard wald. he was for a time the head of nbc news. and later abc. she made him take her there to see the movie. she didn't want to go alone. ann: i would hope she took somebody with her and he would be a perfect escort for something like that. susan: i did 150 interviews for the book. there weren't great archival resources, but there were some archives i looked at that were helpful, the barbara walter archives at the at sarah lawrence college. and the roone arledge archives, and a few others. ann: ann: i was going to ask you about the barbara walters archives. are they searchable? are they open or do you have to have special permission to get in? susan: there are just at the beginning of being processed and not very complete. you want to find a personal letter that they wrote, that

thing exactly. i couldn't find that. i am hoping now that she has passed away, that she has made provision for more of her papers there at sarah lawrence. ann: one moment in the book that i just love his 2010 at abc news , and roone arledge's president, or is the david westin by now? and they want to show. . and what do they do? susan: it was david westin. roone arledge had been through all these rivalries is not just between diane sawyer and barbara walters spread between male journalists. this is part of his method. it was a pretty cutthroat culture. david westin wanted to show that we were working as a team. so there was a famous picture that roone arledge had taken of the seven big anchors of abc

which included barbara walters. he arranged a portrait of several dozen, maybe 26 anchors of all sorts, to show that they were all in this together, and totem pole to wear gray or black so that that he told them all to wear gray or black so they would look like a team. ann: uniformity. susan: so they are lined up, and you can imagine the logistical challenges of getting this done. they finally got everybody there, diane sawyer, george stephanopoulos and others, and in walks barbara walters at the last minute, wearing a bright red jacket. and of course they had saved a space for her right in the middle of this picture. she goes in, she takes her chair, they take the picture. so the picture that you see is

all of these others in muted colors, diane sawyer is wearing a white blouse, black skirt and a red belt and then this bright figure in the middle who is clearly the captain of the team. ann: amazing. amazing. at the end there was no big funeral for barbara walters. tim russert, when he died, it was the kennedy center. peter jennings, we went to carnegie hall. why do you think? susan: so that was a great surprise to me, and i was in the middle of finishing the book and and i thought, this would be wonderful for the book, what and wonderful moment to see her memorial service. it did not take place. her remains were cremated and given to her daughter. her daughter, who is very private, did not want -- my understanding is her daughter did not want to have a big memorial service. abc decided, my understanding is

that you couldn't really have it without her closest relatives, with her daughter being as possible with being there. barbara went to a million of those. and spoke at a branch of them exceptionally imagine she would have reveled in being followed by all these friends and families at a memorial service. but, in fact, tom emmer was private. ann: where is she buried? susan: it was not enough. i knew from the research i have done that she had intended to be buried in a cemetery in miami where her father and mother and sister were buried. but the cemetery refused to cooperate. i finally hired a researcher who had to move heaven and earth to do an in-depth research to find the great stone, which she did, the researcher did.

it's a small group stolen, close to the ground, next to her mother, father and sister. but it says, "no regrets, i had a great life." susan: what a coda. susan, let me finish my asking you, if barbara walters in her and if she said, susan, of course i will sit through an interview with you, what two or three questions would you ask barbara walters? >> i would want them to be good, and i would probably ask myself, what would barbara ask. because she was enormously skilled and she would have questions that got to the heart of the matter that were impossible to dodge. she knew the more words she had her on the question, the more will words they would have to

dodge it. if i asked three questions i might ask her, what's your best memory, and let's see if she says something professional or personal. >> what's your biggest regret. she may say she has no regrets, but none of us have no regrets. and i think the final question i would ask would be, were you happy? >> you asked that question of many of the people you interviewed, the verdict? susan: a few said, yes, she was happy. joy on the view said happy-ish. there's no question she was very proud of what she did and she was proud of the money she made. almost everyone else i talked to said, no, she was never content, she was not happy.

>> susan page, thank you. >> the bipartisan policy center recently hosted a discussion on artificial intelligence and the potential risk it could pose for political campaigns, voters in election officials. watch the full discussion tonight at 10:30 5 p.m. eastern on c-span, c-span now, our free mobile video app or online at c-span.org. c-span is your unfiltered view of government, we are funded by these television companies and more, including sparklight. >> the greatest town on earth is a place you call home. at sparklight, it's our home to, and right now we are all facing our greatest challenge. that's why sparklight is working round the clock to keep you connected. we are doing our part so it's a little easier to do yours. quick sparklight supports c-span as a public